What Is Your Faith?

[clueless]

Just curious to see what personal religious convictions hold on this board. It would be nice if insults are not thrown around. :)

[Luke]

Nottingham Forest

[~Wayne~]

Athiest all the way!

[Luke]

Who's a muslim?

[clueless]

i am :)

[Brianna.]

Well, technically, I'm jewish, but I don't practice.

[Luke]

i am :)

Oh......

[Scotty Walds]

Football :cool:

[NeEdLeZ]

Christian all the way. bitc*es.

But no, I'm not against gay marriage in any way;)

[Shane]

Athiest all the way!
Here Here!

[_bosnian_]

i am :)

me too :)

[blazeteendanny]

im 2 mean to be part of a religion lol

[xxrachxx]

i was christened.... am church of england, if that makes any difference?

[Asi9ine]

I have different views on religion, but I won't post those in here.

I am an Atheist anyway, albeit an odd one.

[Sponge'K'nob]

whats difference between atheist and agnostic? i forgot.

[Brianna.]

An agnostic believes that there IS something out there, but they don't know what/don't really believe in orgnaized religion.

An atheist dosen't believe in anything.

[Sponge'K'nob]

umm well im like christian because ive been christened etc....but i guess im atheist aswel.
uhuh, i don't really think about it much.

[-Snake-]

I belive in god but not organised religion,
I belive you don't need a chruch to pray or a book to read. I think you find your own religion when you try to be a good person :)

[gprime]

Former Jew, now an atheist.

[Abdullah]

Christian all the way. bitc*es.

But no, I'm not against gay marriage in any way;)

But u seem that your against muslims!! from your sig

[Kaiser]

Well, I'm a (strong, see below) atheist and an agnostic, the agnosticism there is sometimes a bit of a moot point.


An agnostic believes that there IS something out there, but they don't know what/don't really believe in orgnaized religion.

An atheist dosen't believe in anything. No, not quite.

Agnosticism is an epistemological belief (a belief about the nature of knowledge) that a. whether or not god(s) exists is unknowable to human beings, and/or b. if god(s) exists, then the nature of it is unknowable to human beings.

Atheism is a metaphysical position that states that god(s) does not exist. Atheism takes one of two forms: weak atheism, which is simply is lack of belief in any deities. Babies, people who are undecided, people who've never heard of the idea of a god, etc., would all count as weak atheists, as they hold no belief in any gods, even if they do not formally disbelieve. This is the original definition of atheism, as it derives from the prefix "a-" and "theism," theism meaning belief in god(s) and "a-" meaning loosely "not." Therefore, not believing in god(s), but not necessarily disbelieving, either. The more commonly used form in modern times, then, is strong atheism: affirmative disbelief in the existence of god(s). This is anyone who doesn't just not believe, but actively disbelieves that there are any gods. Since atheism holds only to the realm of deities, an atheist could believe in any spiritual mumbo-jumbo they like, as long as it's not a god. Most don't, of course, but there are plenty who do.

Because of the first definition of atheism, any individual is either an atheist or a theist: they either hold some belief in a god or they don't. Agnosticism, contrary to popular belief, is not a "middle ground," it's something totally separate. Thus, any agnostic is, like anything else, either theistic or atheistic. So asking someone "are you an atheist or an agnostic?" is like asking "are you a person or do you live on Earth?" They're hardly mutually exclusive.

[Abdullah]

Who are the agnostics??

[Patriot1776]

agnostics: are not quite sure whether they believe in a god or not.


As I've said before I am a Catholic (Christian)

[serkan]

islam

[Leon]

The religion of Manchester United F.C.

[serkan]

Manchester United will not absolve you from hell :)

[Leon]

Well, they are 'The Red Devils'.

[serkan]

:) :d

[serkan]

if you die someday? what will you do?
-The Red Devils will help to you? :)

[Robyn]

Manchester United will not absolve you from hell :)

That is my favourite quote so far =]

I'm a Catholic

[VraiCanon]

I am Christian however I also hold beliefs of Islam.

In particular this verse from the Qu'ran:
"Let there be no compulsion in Religion. Truth stands distinct from Error. Whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trust-worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things." (Qu'ran 2:256)

[serkan]

yes, thats true :)

[lucille]

Christian all the way. bitc*es.


Spoken like a true Christian!

I'm a Jew. A bad Jew.

[Wacko1574]

I am Muslim :D..and gr8 to know many Muslims are here too

[Nirvana_rox]

Wiccan baby!
But I am also a follower of the mighty nintendus

[samster146]

I'm Jewish, but I don't really believe in a God. I'm sort of an Athiest Jew.

[Kerry]

I'm a Catholic. ;o

[tf_arl_90]

Agnosticism is an epistemological belief (a belief about the nature of knowledge) that a. whether or not god(s) exists is unknowable to human beings, and/or b. if god(s) exists, then the nature of it is unknowable to human beings.

Right. Which is what I believe.

Do I believe God exists? Not really. But I can't prove he doesn't, nor can I prove he does. And until I get evidence either way, I am not going to say that I am 100% sure that God doesn't exist. Of course, I don't think anyone will ever really know for sure, so I'm neither an atheist nor a believer.

In other words, I don't believe in God, but I'm open to the possibility of him existing. Other agnostics might say they believe in God but are open to the possibility of him not existing.

[sniffer]

Where's scientology? xD kidding.

I'm a Christian.

[Wandering Soul]

ya know i think there is a difference between faith and religion, but thats just me. there aint anything out there. so the closest thing i believe is whatever i have proof in. hard factual proof. scientisit if you will, would probably best describe me. i think but the closes thing you have is atheist. i guerss

[becy]

I'm A Christian :)

[Leon]

if you die someday? what will you do?
-The Red Devils will help to you? :)I won't need help, there will be plenty of us!

[Kate]

I'm Allah.

[x_Bunny]

Christianity Converting To Islam. ?


I Would Rather Live My Life As If There Was A God And Die To Find Out There Isn't. Than Live My Life As If There Isn't And Die To Find Out There Is - Albert Camus.

[eukaryote]

Other. I am a Quaker.

[Jekyll-Hyde]

I'm Christian =]

[nyx]

I'm agnostic.

I'd like to think thats the most rational view point, even if it does involve sitting on fences. I personally don't believe in a god, or anything else. I went to a Church o England school and had it drummed into me, I could recite the lords prayer at three, and probably still could. But despite thinking about it a lot, I can't bring myself to believe in it.

However I'm not gonna say, THERE IS NO GOD. If people want to believe there is I'm gonna let them have that opinion.

I've always been a bit jealous of religious people's commitment to something and their community though.

[Kate]

I've been told when I was drunk last weekend, I told a few of my Christian friends that I respected them for having a faith and envied them for believing that there is something greater than us.

[Bebot]

Muslim :)

[tramp]

Scientology FTW

[ashleyxkilljoy]

christian!

[Aldie__]

I believe in science and I always need to see proof in order to believe in its truth, therefore religion is just not my kinda thing.

[dumdadum]

I'm Atheist. I used to be Catholic, however, with the christening video to prove it. I suppose it was a mixture of a) me attending a catholic school and despising all those hours of (to me, pointless) masses and prayers and not having any say at all in it from a young child... and b) I'm a space freak. Anything space-y and I'm intrigued. Space and God don't go together, really. The question "Why would God bother to make the universe so large and complex for no real reason," was and is the main reason for me not believing in anything. That, and the overwhelming evidence that the Earth is in fact over 10,000 years old...

I didn't just overnight become Atheist, though. It took a good two or three years to finally admit I didn't believe in what my parents believe in. XD

[YourNightmare]

Other. Satanism.

[Wacko1574]

wow! satanism .... i read abt things you guys practice donno if its true or not....could you lyk explain satanism ...wut you believe in...wut you do ...the usual

[YourNightmare]

Most of the things people think are completely bullshit. Tell me what you have read and you may or may have not heard properly. Most of the movies that potray Satanism are completely wrong. If you want a better idea, go to www.churchofsatan.com (http://www.churchofsatan.com) .

[Wandering Soul]

! something tells me im gonna like you!

[YourNightmare]

Haha. Well, we'll see.

[I Love Necks]

Atheist.

The idea of some big man with a beard planting some seeds in a hug plant pot and making the entire universe out of that is just ridiculous, really. Also, this is how Christians claim it was actually done. It's in the first addition of the bible. Don't buy into that whole 'he created it mysteriously in 7 days' shit they edited in.

[orly]

I put: agnostic.

foo'

[Gunshot_Glamour]

Most of the world's largest scandals, wars, and other acts of violence have been done in fighting over religion and God...If there were a higher power or being, don't you think He / She wouldn't want such things to be done in His / Her name?

I'm sorry if I have offended you, but I am an athiest.

[iamjasa_]

I'd like to say that I was anything at all, but i'm not. At this point in time I picked other, as in undecided.

[Gurp-Ipod]

Well I stopped believing in sikhim and believe the Christian views/ God.

[Wandering Soul]

Most of the world's largest scandals, wars, and other acts of violence have been done in fighting over religion and God...If there were a higher power or being, don't you think He / She wouldn't want such things to be done in His / Her name?

I'm sorry if I have offended you, but I am an athiest.


dude theses people have to live with what i say... trust me you wont offend them!

[Wacko1574]

^^o_O

[Shakedown]

Christianity. My own brand.

[HDB]

agnostic doesn't mean ur not sure. it means u don't beleive god made the universe and that there is no proof of heaven/hell. im sorta that and athiest. and for all the stereotypers.......im not goth or anything. I don't worship the devil or anything like that. lol

[Wandering Soul]

and for all the stereotypers.......im not goth or anything. I don't worship the devil or anything like that. lol

???? well umm. this is where your kinda supposed to claim what you are...... and you said what you said.. how are we supposed to judge you any other way.

[Leon]

and for all the stereotypers.......im not goth or anything. I don't worship the devil or anything like that. lolI love how you made that point by stating a stereotype yourself.

[nyx]

Wow, I'm surprised how many atheists there are. To me that seems as illogical as claiming there is a God.

[Fez]

I'm still not sure if there is a God or not.. I mean, there could be. You never know, but then again, maybe we are alone

[xMissIzzyx]

Athiest, always have been. I don't come from a highly religious family anyway, just my granparents really, I'm much more of a spiritual person. I don't understand how a person can base their lives and belief system on.. well, a story or a book more than anything, lol [call me simple if you wish].

It's just not my thing, I really have to see something to believe it. I believe in myself and others around me, not a load of stories about some higher power, miracles, etc.. and their apparent ability to save people and whatever.

[Wandering Soul]

i agree to the maximum extent

[elise-ruth]

umm well im like christian because ive been christened etc....but i guess im atheist aswel.
uhuh, i don't really think about it much.

umm to be honest been christened doesnt mean ur a christian.!
u either beleive or you dont basically

love elisexx

[diabloprimeevil]

i am agnostic and alot of people who say there atheist are actualy agnostic they just arnt to sure of the difference

[Shiro Yuri]

I'm of no religion. I don't believe in it, I find it all a weak fallacy.

[Nintendus]

so the closest thing i believe is whatever i have proof in. hard factual proof. scientisit if you will, would probably best describe me. i think but the closes thing you have is atheist. i guerss
I would not call you a scientist. You like many others who tend to view 'science' over religion do not take an objective view of it. You read things which support your view - or nothing at all. You might even go so far as to read the God Delusion, but none of it's rebuttals obviously.

If this is science, I would have a very low opinion of a scientist. Many great men, many great scientists have and do believe in God and science in itself can be used to argue either way.

[Nintendus]

I'm of no religion. I don't believe in it, I find it all a weak fallacy.
You do not think there is arrogance in infering that it is a 'weak' fallacy?

[*Jess*]

To be a scientist you would have to take actual hard evidence from both sides and test it to prove absolutely that you weren't wrong, and test it from both sides. Otherwise it wouldn't be reliable. For this reason, indeed he cannot be a scientist.

[Shiro Yuri]

You do not think there is arrogance in infering that it is a 'weak' fallacy?
Yes. But I really don't give a damn how I seem. I hate religion with a passion.

[Nintendus]

I hate religion with a passion.
Can I ask why? As I think a lot of people who hate religion simply hate human nature.

[Wandering Soul]

I would not call you a scientist. You like many others who tend to view 'science' over religion do not take an objective view of it. You read things which support your view - or nothing at all. You might even go so far as to read the God Delusion, but none of it's rebuttals obviously.

If this is science, I would have a very low opinion of a scientist. Many great men, many great scientists have and do believe in God and science in itself can be used to argue either way.

Wh04 time... for record ive read the bible many times. to me its a collection of stories nothing more. and btw my uh major in college... is biological science... with a minor in english... so uh i think i kinda quailfy for that one... but uh i never have read the god delusion. i just plainly dont believe

[Nintendus]

Wh04 time... for record ive read the bible many times. to me its a collection of stories nothing more.
While I sincerely doubt that you have read the bible many times I don't particulary think it matters. I am not disputing that you do not believe in God, I merely do not think you should associate that with science. At the end of the day it doesn't bother me what you think of the bible, but it hardly counts as being objective in your 'scientific' analysis. After all if you're not convinced by religion, reading it's holy texts are hardly going to help you.


and btw my uh major in college... is biological science...so uh i think i kinda quailfy for that one...
I don't understand your education system. But I wouldn't think your specification would be that expansive.


i just plainly dont believe
Again, I do not dispute that.

[Shiro Yuri]

Can I ask why? As I think a lot of people who hate religion simply hate human nature.
Possibly. But religion tends to cause tension between factions. A friend of mine summed it up rather well.

"The truth of the matter is this: if you really believed in the moral truths of the causes you champion, you would not need the church. If these ideals are truly reasonable, ethical human values, then even we heretics would uphold them, and the voice of the church would not need to be heard in order for them to become law.

Yes, it can be truly said that the only weight the church can add is the weight of 'god said so.' No, I tell you that the church is not the top of the moral ladder, because the church has never had the interests of mankind at heart. They do not even have the interests of god at heart. They have the interests of a few men clinging to outdated ideals and power, men who would rather 'stick to their guns' than say 'Hey, it's okay if you use birth control.'

I contend that if you believe the church needs any say in championing it's morals, then you do not truly believe in those causes--you only follow them because 'god said so.' For if you had other reasons to promote them, you would not need the church--and that is why the American Constitution specifies separation; so that the reasons for a law are genuine, and not influenced by the only contribution the church can make--that some phantom entity among the clouds wants it to be so.

Religions are not moral authorities. They are not the wise old institutions trying to instill sense into the masses. They are the kings of conquest and murder, the princes of hate and intolerance. They are the champions of ignorance, and the royal family of war."

[Wandering Soul]

hell if we just all lived off a strict honor code i'd think everything would be better. people say chivalry is dead... i wanna revive it

[Nintendus]

Sorry I took so long getting back to you, I was on a school trip :P. First off I think you're friend's argument is generalised and slightly bigoted, I'll try and explain why but I don't want to argue against it in such impassioned tones as his, lest I manage to place myself in positions I am uncomfortable with.

Possibly. But religion tends to cause tension between factions.
That's what I meant by human nature rather than religion. If your premise is that 'religion tends to cause tension between factions', then you surely must recognise that religion there could be replaced with many other terms; 'local' and 'national idendity' perhaps? It is human nature to divide itself over its differences, and they will always find them worthy of conflict.
The only way religion contributes to this is by providing itself as another way of division, you can no more blame it though than you can blame anything else with divides mankind.


"The truth of the matter is this: if you really believed in the moral truths of the causes you champion, you would not need the church. If these ideals are truly reasonable, ethical human values, then even we heretics would uphold them, and the voice of the church would not need to be heard in order for them to become law.

Yes, it can be truly said that the only weight the church can add is the weight of 'god said so.' No, I tell you that the church is not the top of the moral ladder, because the church has never had the interests of mankind at heart. They do not even have the interests of god at heart. They have the interests of a few men clinging to outdated ideals and power, men who would rather 'stick to their guns' than say 'Hey, it's okay if you use birth control.'

I contend that if you believe the church needs any say in championing it's morals, then you do not truly believe in those causes--you only follow them because 'god said so.' For if you had other reasons to promote them, you would not need the church--and that is why the American Constitution specifies separation; so that the reasons for a law are genuine, and not influenced by the only contribution the church can make--that some phantom entity among the clouds wants it to be so.

Religions are not moral authorities. They are not the wise old institutions trying to instill sense into the masses. They are the kings of conquest and murder, the princes of hate and intolerance. They are the champions of ignorance, and the royal family of war."


I firstly said that this was a generalisation:
i) The person who states this seems to have an odd view that religion sets down absolutely strict moral values you have to maintain. This is clearly not always the case. I have grown up in a very Quaker enviroment, and Quakers as an example are all about guidance rather than rules. Similarly too, you must notice the debate which goes on in more main stream demoninations about how the bible relates to certain issues. And where exactly do 'justification by faith' sort of people fall into this?

Secondly, I stated it was bigoted:
i) The person who posts this article assumes that his moral values are right, very much shown by this "men who would rather 'stick to their guns' than say 'Hey, it's okay if you use birth control.'" . I can't see how the arrogance of that does not speak for itself. The whole extract seems to be a rant about how he's annoyed about the church defining what morals are right, because they are not compatible with his own morals.

Sure atheists can be just as moral as religious people. I doubt many religious people deny that. I don't see how that is linked to you having faith or not, it seems a bit of a side issue. I think that extract is a classic example of sacrificing content for quality of prose.

[dolittle08]

Just curious to see what personal religious convictions hold on this board. It would be nice if insults are not thrown around. :)


Catholic.. but I don't think religions matter.. my boyfriend is Muslim and we're okay!!

[-Luke-]

Thinking about what i believe in, i guess i'm a Pagan. I'm happy with that :)

[Glamour_Love]

Technically I'm a Christian, but I always feel a bit guilty when I say so 'cause I don't really follow it.

[Shane]

Technically I'm a Christian, but I always feel a bit guilty when I say so 'cause I don't really follow it.
I like to say I have Christian beliefs cause I celebrate xmas and easter but I don't really believe in God.

[Glamour_Love]

Yeah, same here. I'm sometimes in two minds whether to say I don't have a religion but I'd be contradicting myself by celebrating Christmas and Easter. I don't know though, I think most people who call themselves Christians, Muslims, Catholics etc etc nowadays don't really follow the rules either. I'll go out on a limb here and say most religious occasions are celebrated for cultural reasons like getting the family together and exchanging gifts, rather than the real religious reasons.

[GemmaJamPot]

^^ I totally agree with you.

I was Christened C of E, but yeah, I dont really follow a religion... Id like to say I follow the moral guidlines taught in the bible, but I do not really believe in God or any of the stories.

X

[-Luke-]

Like a Pick 'n' mix thing really..
lol

[Teddy Bear]

I am not a follower of any faith but I am not against the thought of a "superior" being excisting somewhere.

[River]

I have faith. It gets hard sometimes, but I love it.
But I was once told,
"Religion gets in the way of relationship"
Which in some cases can be true.

[Thesimpleone.]

I think that any faith is real.
for somebody to have faith, in itself. Is a real thing. and CAN change peoples lives
whether what they have faith in is real or not.

crap explanation but here goes ...

I could make up a religion about headbands...
But as long as I had faith in that religion, It would be real.

Because for somebody to have such a strong feeling, it has to be real, right?

x

[TeenageDirtbag]

Until i see Jesus, then i'm athiest.

[River]

I think that any faith is real.
for somebody to have faith, in itself. Is a real thing. and CAN change peoples lives
whether what they have faith in is real or not.

crap explanation but here goes ...

I could make up a religion about headbands...
But as long as I had faith in that religion, It would be real.

Because for somebody to have such a strong feeling, it has to be real, right?

x

Right x

[-Luke-]

Its quite to define religion really, i did a whole year of it in Sociology and i still dont know how to define it without including stupid beliefs like Elvis being alive

[Ed.]

proud athiest :)

[D3c3p7ioN]

Well umm I believe in God but I don't really follow a religion.

[Edophe]

Pagan represent :D

[lipgloss]

I think that any faith is real.
for somebody to have faith, in itself. Is a real thing. and CAN change peoples lives
whether what they have faith in is real or not.

crap explanation but here goes ...

I could make up a religion about headbands...
But as long as I had faith in that religion, It would be real.

Because for somebody to have such a strong feeling, it has to be real, right?

x

:agree: I like the way u put that.

[rosie1]

i hate religion

[VraiCanon]

i hate religion

Why?

[Nintendus]

proud athiest :)
What on earth is a proud atheist? An atheist has to believe that they are nothing, that love means nothing, that morality is just an illusion. Maybe you have picked the correct position, but what a disheartaning and truely tragic position it is. I for one would not be proud of it.


Until i see Jesus, then i'm athiest.
Isn't that just plain unreasonable? I mean I've never seen Canada, but I am fully convinced that it does exist.


I could make up a religion about headbands...
But as long as I had faith in that religion, It would be real.

Because for somebody to have such a strong feeling, it has to be real, right?
Well on a strictly literal sense of what is true, then no it does not have to be real. The majority of the major world religions contradict each other, they cannot all be true.

[lipgloss]

Atheist.

The idea of some big man with a beard planting some seeds in a hug plant pot and making the entire universe out of that is just ridiculous, really. Also, this is how Christians claim it was actually done. It's in the first addition of the bible. Don't buy into that whole 'he created it mysteriously in 7 days' shit they edited in.
yeah,...it does sound pretty far-fetched... But let me get this straight...if you believe in evolution, then your ancestors are monkeys. To me, that sounds far-fetched as well! If I could chose between my ancestors being monkeys or human, I think I'd chose the latter. Also, if it's all about evolution, we should be seeing a lot of evolving going on, like half human, half monkey etc! I think both creation and evolution require faith. Either God created the earth, or it all began from a big bang.

[Edophe]

We are really like monkeys, just for the record.

[Nintendus]

yeah,...it does sound pretty far-fetched... But let me get this straight...if you believe in evolution, then your ancestors are monkeys. To me, that sounds far-fetched as well! If I could chose between my ancestors being monkeys or human, I think I'd chose the latter. Also, if it's all about evolution, we should be seeing a lot of evolving going on, like half human, half monkey etc! I think both creation and evolution require faith. Either God created the earth, or it all began from a big bang.
i) That's not strictly true, we come from a common ancestor of them. Not monkeys themselves.
ii) No, we really shouldn't. Macroevolution is a very slow process, as you would expect it to be.
iii) False choice? I'd say God was responsible for the Big Bang.

[lipgloss]

i) That's not strictly true, we come from a common ancestor of them. Not monkeys themselves.
ii) No, we really shouldn't. Macroevolution is a very slow process, as you would expect it to be.
iii) False choice? I'd say God was responsible for the Big Bang.
I was being sarcastic. But for the record, I don't believe in evolution...obviously. cheers.

[conor]

An atheist has to believe that they are nothing, that love means nothing, that morality is just an illusion.


That's not really true.
If you help others, good things happen for them, making them happier, making them more amiable in general, and therefore more likely to help you.. that's enough of a reason to abide by a set of morals, even if they're not provided by a God.

[Edophe]

Cher, I changed my mind. I think I'm a neo-eclectic christian.
:D

[Fez]

i have more faith now than ever before.. weird.
still dont go to church though. i can pray from home if i really feel like it

[tf_arl_90]

An atheist has to believe that they are nothing, that love means nothing, that morality is just an illusion.
I think you mean nihilism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God.


Isn't that just plain unreasonable? I mean I've never seen Canada, but I am fully convinced that it does exist.
Maybe you haven't seen it personally, but there is scientific evidence that the land exists. In science, you assume something is false until it's proven true. There is no proof that God exists (Jesus is another story...lol) therefore it's perfectly logical to assume he doesn't.

However, if you have faith, which is different from relying on strictly evidence, it makes perfect sense to believe God exists.

[Nintendus]

I think you mean nihilism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God.

It is nhilistic, yes. But everything I just said logically flows from atheism: they have no real grounding for morality, love, beauty anything.

If there is an atheist way to believe those things are real and significant and not just evolutionary developed survival mechanisms or whatever else produces such things naturally, then I'd like to hear it.


Maybe you haven't seen it personally, but there is scientific evidence that the land exists. In science, you assume something is false until it's proven true. There is no proof that God exists (Jesus is another story...lol) therefore it's perfectly logical to assume he doesn't.

However, if you have faith, which is different from relying on strictly evidence, it makes perfect sense to believe God exists.
I do not neccessarily dispute any of that - I do, but that's largely irrelevant - but the person I quoted specifically said that they would believe once they had 'seen' Jesus, which I saw as pretty unreasonable.


That's not really true.
If you help others, good things happen for them, making them happier, making them more amiable in general, and therefore more likely to help you.. that's enough of a reason to abide by a set of morals, even if they're not provided by a God.
I think that proves my point rather nicely.

[tf_arl_90]

It is nhilistic, yes. But everything I just said logically flows from atheism: they have no real grounding for morality, love, beauty anything.

If there is an atheist way to believe those things are real and significant and not just evolutionary developed survival mechanisms or whatever else produces such things naturally, then I'd like to hear it.

Atheists can and often do believe in morality, love, beauty, and other things. A nihilist might believe that these things don't exist, and if they do, that they're pointless. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that atheists don't use God as their grounding for all that you mentioned. However, that doesn't mean an atheist doesn't believe in morality, love, or anything else.

All nihilists are atheists but not all atheists are nihilists. Only some of them are.

[xxPandiexx]

What on earth is a proud atheist? An atheist has to believe that they are nothing, that love means nothing, that morality is just an illusion. Maybe you have picked the correct position, but what a disheartaning and truely tragic position it is. I for one would not be proud of it.


Isn't that just plain unreasonable? I mean I've never seen Canada, but I am fully convinced that it does exist.


Well on a strictly literal sense of what is true, then no it does not have to be real. The majority of the major world religions contradict each other, they cannot all be true.

lol =/

[n0iZe]

Agnostic.

[laurenORDER]

Roman Catholic = Christian

[Nintendus]

lol =/
I'm sorry. Have I done something offensive?

All I am trying to do is debate an issue in what is the debate forum. An issue I think is important.


Atheists can and often do believe in morality, love, beauty, and other things. A nihilist might believe that these things don't exist, and if they do, that they're pointless. The difference between an atheist and a theist is that atheists don't use God as their grounding for all that you mentioned. However, that doesn't mean an atheist doesn't believe in morality, love, or anything else.

All nihilists are atheists but not all atheists are nihilists. Only some of them are.
They can believe in them all they want, but they still don't have any decent grounding for them. To put it bluntly; they can believe in them if they want but then I hope they appreciate the irony if they then turn round to me and say that I shouldn't believe in a God due to their not being evidence for His existence.

If you know of some way an atheist can believe in any well grounded morality then I would really love to hear it :).

[tf_arl_90]

They can believe in them all they want, but they still don't have any decent grounding for them.

What's your definition of a "decent grounding" anyway?

To an atheist, using God as a grounding for being moral seems absurd and certainly not "decent." Is that to say that without God, believers would all run around killing each other and committing other immoral acts? An atheist doesn't rely on the threat of going to hell to be a good person. An atheist behaves morally for other reasons.

Some believe it's evolutionary. Some believe it's the values that your parents instill in you. Some believe it's built into our brains and hearts, meaning that if something doesn't "feel" right, it's immoral. Why do atheists and believers frequently have similar moral beliefs?

I'm not an atheist, and even if I was, not all atheists believe the same things so I certainly can't speak for all of them. But I think many (sometimes unknowingly) take a humanist approach when it comes to morality. Humanism frequently accompanies atheism.

And if I had to guess, I'd say morality was around way before Christianity was anyway.


To put it bluntly; they can believe in them if they want but then I hope they appreciate the irony if they then turn round to me and say that I shouldn't believe in a God due to their not being evidence for His existence.

Are you suggesting that many atheists are inconsistent with their beliefs? Because if that's the case, then I agree with you.

I know quite a few atheists who claim to not believe in God because there is no evidence for His existence while still believing in things like UFOs, life on other planets, ghosts, etc. When I ask them why, they just say things like, "Well, there MUST be something out there."

That response could also be used to justify one's belief in God, so it makes me wonder why they believe in some things but not others. There is a certain degree of faith required in atheism too.

However, using belief in morality, love, etc. is not the best way to expose these inconsistencies, imo.

[xoDoLLFaCexo]

I Follow Christianity; however I dont have anything against Gay/Lesbians. =)

[Nintendus]

*+thanks* A very interesting post as per usual :). Sincere apologies for my late reply. I'll just add a few points underneath rather than cutting the post up.


What's your definition of a "decent grounding" anyway?

To an atheist, using God as a grounding for being moral seems absurd and certainly not "decent." Is that to say that without God, believers would all run around killing each other and committing other immoral acts? An atheist doesn't rely on the threat of going to hell to be a good person. An atheist behaves morally for other reasons.

Some believe it's evolutionary. Some believe it's the values that your parents instill in you. Some believe it's built into our brains and hearts, meaning that if something doesn't "feel" right, it's immoral. Why do atheists and believers frequently have similar moral beliefs?


1. 'Is that to say that without God, believers would all run around killing each other and commiting immoral acts' - No that's not quite what I'm getting at. I believe that without God everyone would be doing that, because I believe mankind is inherantly wicked. I would never suggest that morality is dependant on a belief in God, but dependant on God's existance. (I think this answers some other points you mention, such as morality being around before Christianity)

2. 'An atheist doesn't rely on the threat of going to hell to be a good person. An atheist behaves morally for other reasons.' - Well, I don't know how much I can speak for other Christians. The 'threat' of hell however is not the reason actively I reach in my mind as to why I try and be 'moral'. (Although I will not bring it up here, my idea of hell is perhaps a little different from the standard hellfire sort of hell in popular culture). It is hard to describe my personal reasons - as indeed I suspect it should be - but it goes a little more like this: I am so unrighteous, and so full of sin and wickedness. I have rebelled against God in every way. Yet God loves me, perfectly and completely. To the extent of which he sent his only begotten son to become the lowest of the low, and to be sacrified to face the punishment for my sins - the punishment that I deserve. How in spite of that could I continue to sin like I always had? God loves me perfectly and completely, and yet I still have pride, I still lust, I still lie. It's not that I fear hell when I sin, it's that I'm doing what breaks the very heart of a God who loves me. I feel deeply ashamed when I sin, and embarassed to turn back to the Lord for forgiveness.

I apologise if that was not articulated very clearly. It is too late at night for such things as coherency :p. And I also apologise for breaking into 'sin' language :P. I cannot speak for the majority of chirstians as I said. When I see most christians I don't see how their morality is at all different to the world's. Beyond that there are some undoubtedly who do behave well for fear of going to hell. But I merely describe what it is like for me to suggest that morality derived from God can theologically have better groundings than 'fear of punishment'.

I fear my description here might have made it sound like God was simply setting some sort of arbitary commands, which then became morality. Which would make morality nothing more than God's whim. I more suggest that God's character is naturally goodness, and that he is the source of all goodness. His very nature is simply what is good.

3. 'Some believe it's evolutionary. Some believe it's the values that your parents instill in you.' - i.e. it's either what culture or society or biology says is 'good'. I suppose what I have a problem with here is the use of the word 'moral' in this case. I think morality entails static norms. But culture changes, our evolutionary needs change. What is 'good' and 'moral' now, might not be for all we know. I don't think that's a very adaquate grounding for morality at all. (of course this does not impact at all on whether it is true or not)


4. ' Some believe it's built into our brains and hearts, meaning that if something doesn't "feel" right, it's immoral. Why do atheists and believers frequently have similar moral beliefs?' - As to the first part, if we're saying that it's not natural, and that it's something instilled in us. Then we are accepting some sort of non-naturalistic origin of morality. And that entails all sorts of problems, because if something is behing our inbuilt sense of morality then it is something that clearly cares about how we behave. That to me sounds suspiciously like a personal God. As to the second part I quoted, I would refer to poitn 1 again.



Are you suggesting that many atheists are inconsistent with their beliefs? Because if that's the case, then I agree with you.

I know quite a few atheists who claim to not believe in God because there is no evidence for His existence while still believing in things like UFOs, life on other planets, ghosts, etc. When I ask them why, they just say things like, "Well, there MUST be something out there."

That response could also be used to justify one's belief in God, so it makes me wonder why they believe in some things but not others. There is a certain degree of faith required in atheism too.

However, using belief in morality, love, etc. is not the best way to expose these inconsistencies, imo.
While I do agree on the inconsistencies point, I was not originally pointing out an inconsistency in belief as far as I recall. I was merely suggesting that the atheists viewpoint naturally is a sad one, as those things really do not count for much within it.



Again, my sincerest apologies for any lack of coherency.

[Andy-Rocks1234]

Catholic :)

I think God exists, Even if the big bang did happen, Where would the gas have come from?
I think most religions believe in the same God, Just under a different name and choose there own way to show respect to Him :)

[Teddy Bear]

I believe that there's either some kind of godlike being out there or that everything is eternal. Because from what I know "nothing" can't possibly be existing since everything is something, right? So there's no thing that can be created, it can just be formed from something else. We've (mankind) has never seen anthing be created from scratch, logically speaking it's impossible meaning that if there is something that was born out of nothing it would be kind of godlike. Also nothing can be destroyed, it only changes and becomes something new hence it's eternal. If you think I'm wrong please tell me ^^

[tf_arl_90]

1. 'Is that to say that without God, believers would all run around killing each other and commiting immoral acts' - No that's not quite what I'm getting at. I believe that without God everyone would be doing that, because I believe mankind is inherantly wicked. I would never suggest that morality is dependant on a belief in God, but dependant on God's existance. (I think this answers some other points you mention, such as morality being around before Christianity)

There's not really more I can say to that except that I disagree. I believe humans are naturally good and that it is in their best interest to be. This in part contributes to why we do good.

Also I understand how your belief in God's *existence* influences your concept of morality, but I still don't understand how God's existence keeps an atheist in line.


I more suggest that God's character is naturally goodness, and that he is the source of all goodness. His very nature is simply what is good.
Isn't God responsible for the Flood, which killed basically everybody except Noah and his crew? How is that good?

And didn't God create people who are evil? I'd imagine you'd bring up the whole free will concept..but he still allowed free will knowing people would commit atrocities. Isn't he in part responsible for evil? How can he still be absolutely 'good' ?


I suppose what I have a problem with here is the use of the word 'moral' in this case. I think morality entails static norms. But culture changes, our evolutionary needs change. What is 'good' and 'moral' now, might not be for all we know. I don't think that's a very adaquate grounding for morality at all. (of course this does not impact at all on whether it is true or not)

It'd be comforting to think that everything we see as "good" and "moral" now will always be. And we don't want acts which are consider "immoral" now to later become "moral" (rape, torture, killing, for example) but on the other hand we do want our morals to evolve in a positive way. Take for example, slavery. Slavery was considered moral at one point, and now most believe it isn't. I'm thankful for this change. In addition, doesn't Leviticus allow slavery? Doesn't this mean that slavery was deemed "moral" not by society but by the Bible itself?

I think there is an alternative yet still adequate grounding for morality, and those who commit immoral acts are simply ignorant or otherwise unaware. In other words, they have not yet reached an understanding of morality. They lack the morals that the vast majority of us have.


4. ' Some believe it's built into our brains and hearts, meaning that if something doesn't "feel" right, it's immoral. Why do atheists and believers frequently have similar moral beliefs?' - As to the first part, if we're saying that it's not natural, and that it's something instilled in us. Then we are accepting some sort of non-naturalistic origin of morality. And that entails all sorts of problems, because if something is behing our inbuilt sense of morality then it is something that clearly cares about how we behave. That to me sounds suspiciously like a personal God. As to the second part I quoted, I would refer to poitn 1 again.

I really, truly can't understand this. Just because we are the way we are doesn't mean God exists and is responsible for everything.


While I do agree on the inconsistencies point, I was not originally pointing out an inconsistency in belief as far as I recall. I was merely suggesting that the atheists viewpoint naturally is a sad one, as those things really do not count for much within it.

I understand why you see the atheist's viewpoint as sad. I'm curious though, do you understand why atheists may view yours as equally pathetic?


Again, my sincerest apologies for any lack of coherency.

Ditto. I've had a long and mentally strenuous day and I'm probably not making any sense either.

Also my apologies on the slow response. I've been very busy these past few weeks.

Oh and also I'm still confused as to what you consider an "adequate grounding" for morality is. I know you believe it's "God" but if that's the *only* definition then I think it's impossible for me or any other nonbeliever to provide you with a satisfying answer (not that this is the point of the discussion ;) ).

[conor]

God =/= real
Singularity == Creation.

[AshleyLove.]

I'm an atheist.
Blehh. :]

[Beck?]

Christian

[bella-bambina]

catholic girl .

[AnnaRose_18]

Christian. Protestant. =)

[zakarius]

im a jedi

[Leon]

As am I.

[Claireapillar]

Catholic :)

I think God exists, Even if the big bang did happen, Where would the gas have come from?
I think most religions believe in the same God, Just under a different name and choose there own way to show respect to Him :)

i be catholic also...although i'm not a practising catholic anymore unfortunately...i miss going to church a lot...the catholic service at uni is shite!


im a jedi

my boyfriend says he is too...

...don't you need to be like baptised/christened, initiated...or some other form of becoming a member of the religion if it's a proper religion though? and there isn't anything like that for jedi is there?

[fuzzylumpkins]

well, you DO need to do the whole padawaan (apprenticeship) thing before you're a full fledged jedi, which I think accomplishes the same thing as baptism, only better because you get to use lightsabers.

[Claireapillar]

well, you DO need to do the whole padawaan (apprenticeship) thing before you're a full fledged jedi, which I think accomplishes the same thing as baptism, only better because you get to use lightsabers.

so technically none of the 'jedis' are actually jedi...cos they haven't been padawans

[Leon]

my boyfriend says he is too...

...don't you need to be like baptised/christened, initiated...or some other form of becoming a member of the religion if it's a proper religion though? and there isn't anything like that for jedi is there?
HA, yes there is! (see link)

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/ (http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/)

EDIT: I've just read the homepage of that site, and oh my god! :D

[Claireapillar]

HA, yes there is! (see link)

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/ (http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/)

EDIT: I've just read the homepage of that site, and oh my god! :D

lol but not until january 2009...so until then you aren't jedi?

[Leon]

I was just amazed that there was a serious (non star wars) thing for it to be honest.

[Claireapillar]

I was just amazed that there was a serious (non star wars) thing for it to be honest.

oh

yeh it is a serious religion and stuff...well some people take it seriously anyway, like scientology i guess in principle...those who believe it, take it seriously...those who don't make a mockery of it....i don't do either...i just thought they should either make it an official religion...like they're going to in jan...or not state it as one.

good idea i reckon, there will be many people happy.
actually ill save that link you sent and show me fella. he will be well chuffed

[Thok]

Im never going to be able to take people seriously when they claim their religion is jedi. It is a religion based on a religion in a fictional story. It is ok to claim it in a non serious way, but to claim you are a real jedi makes no sense as jedis are totaly fictional.

[Claireapillar]

Im never going to be able to take people seriously when they claim their religion is jedi. It is a religion based on a religion in a fictional story. It is ok to claim it in a non serious way, but to claim you are a real jedi makes no sense as jedis are totaly fictional.

see apparantly it's not...and it was invented a long time before star wars...so joe said...i dunno...i cant be assed to research it. But yeh, apparantly has nothing to do with star wars or lucas, it's just he decided to use it... :S

[Thok]

I guess that alot of the members/followers only are because its star wars releated

[Shane]

Im never going to be able to take people seriously when they claim their religion is jedi. It is a religion based on a religion in a fictional story. It is ok to claim it in a non serious way, but to claim you are a real jedi makes no sense as jedis are totaly fictional.
Looks like the Dark Side is with this one.
Blasphemer!

[Thok]

The dark side? i AM the dark side.

[Claireapillar]

LMAO...Jeeze you guys amuse me

[Leon]

The dark side? i AM the dark side.
http://www.bebous.com/data/media/11/st.jpg

:P

[Claireapillar]

lmfao!

[Thok]

:prrr: don't be nasty i shall smite you (or what ever it is the dark side does, maybe pervert your mind so that you wish to hurt people instead of just defend yourself but that's not as cool as smiting people)

[Leon]

:prrr: don't be nasty i shall smite you (or what ever it is the dark side does, maybe pervert your mind so that you wish to hurt people instead of just defend yourself but that's not as cool as smiting people)No, this is what would happen:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_WX9uFpqma18/SBBTNINQiBI/AAAAAAAAAEU/IjbnP2em0y0/s400/YodaHulkBitchBig.jpg

:P

[Thok]

I'm not sure if that supports my claim of being the dark side or contradicts me :(

[Leon]

I don't know either, it was just a funny image I stumbled upon.

As for the dark side, they rape little kids and make them believe what they believe and threaten them with ludicrous facial hair later on in life if they don't stick to it, I mean, have you seen Anakin Skywalker (the one that played the Jedi in training) lately:
http://jewbear.net/img/122713585929.jpg

[Thok]

Im the friendly part of the dark side :] There are two of us you see.

I get the feeling this has strayed FAR from the origional question of faith though.

[Leon]

As long as we're talking about beliefs it isn't too far haha. xD

[Thok]

I beleive you are wrong there

[Leon]

Fair enoughm anyway as I've probably said earlier in the thread seriously, I'm an atheist.

And I'm sure the number of atheists are increasing across the world as everything becomes more modernised to the world of today.

I feel that religion is looked upon by a proportion of young people as an 'old thing' like old technology, old music and old 'everything else' and as all these things are being newly recreated, up to date, I feel Chritianity is slowly dying out in the same way as the rest of the other things. Obviously I don't think it will ever die out, but more and more people seem to believe in none of the religions.

[Thok]

That's true, but i think one of the reasons for that is that these days not everyone has time for religion. They work most days and so weekends usually spent doing things like shopping, cleaning and a little relaxing. I know it is only an hour or so spent at church. But in reality it take up a larger portion of the day.

Another reason for the downfall of religions in general is that there is no discrimination against people who aren't religions. In times of old people were cast out if they did not believe and practice regular worship.

All that being said though, in the modern day there is a greater need for religion and guidance in most peoples lives, but it will be a real struggle to modernise existing religions

[tf_arl_90]

I feel that religion is looked upon by a proportion of young people as an 'old thing' like old technology, old music and old 'everything else' and as all these things are being newly recreated, up to date, I feel Chritianity is slowly dying out in the same way as the rest of the other things. Obviously I don't think it will ever die out, but more and more people seem to believe in none of the religions.

You are talking about the UK?

[Claireapillar]

You are talking about the UK?

yeah...it isn't in other countries...

I think in the U.S many youths still have a healthy interest in it...maybe britain just doesn't influence kids enough or something to be religious...i dunno...or maybe it's enforced too much? :S

other countries think similarly, errr...i think in spain and italy there tends to be a lot of interest in religion...from teens

[Thok]

I think its a mix of both, kids at an early age are forces releigion to much then not enough as they grow up. So they just rebel agaisnt it an never go back

[Leon]

That's true, but i think one of the reasons for that is that these days not everyone has time for religion. They work most days and so weekends usually spent doing things like shopping, cleaning and a little relaxing. I know it is only an hour or so spent at church. But in reality it take up a larger portion of the day.

Another reason for the downfall of religions in general is that there is no discrimination against people who aren't religions. In times of old people were cast out if they did not believe and practice regular worship.

All that being said though, in the modern day there is a greater need for religion and guidance in most peoples lives, but it will be a real struggle to modernise existing religionsAgreed, on Sunday 'the day of rest' and going to church, I'm always at work, says it all.


You are talking about the UK?Oh yeah, I know what Americans views are concerning religion.


I think in the U.S many youths still have a healthy interest in it...maybe britain just doesn't influence kids enough or something to be religious...i dunno...or maybe it's enforced too much? :SNo, it's because we're too afraid we might piss off some muslims.

America teaches what America preaches, because they're not cowering buffoons like our government. You can't do anything British any more because of fucking religions. What does the country you're from have anything to do with fucking religion you follow?

[Claireapillar]

No, it's because we're too afraid we might piss off some muslims.

America teaches what America preaches, because they're not cowering buffoons like our government. You can't do anything British any more because of fucking religions. What does the country you're from have anything to do with fucking religion you follow?

i was just using america as an example...also, the whole pissing off muslims thing has nothing to do with it for me, or anyone i know, so that can't be the only reason can it.

Also, of course different countrys make a difference to religion...because society is different in each country, as are morals, religions e.t.c...Im not saying it is the only influence, but it sure as hell has an effect.

Also, our government tends to have little effect on my religion anyway, as im catholic...i wasn't saying that my opinions and how i do or do not continue with my faith was the reasons that everyone in england in shared.

[Leon]

Oh I know, I was just stating that the politically correct thing in this country has gone mad.

We can't do anything British any more because it will offend someone, and half of the time it because of religious issues. There's something new like this every day.